Rendered at 17:55:21 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Cloudflare Workers.
pyrophane 1 hours ago [-]
GrapheneOS actually recommends against using Aurora and instead just using the Play Store, so this shouldn't really hurt users.
For extra privacy, you can sign into the Play Store with a Google Account that isn't tied to anything else.
DaSHacka 1 hours ago [-]
Although the nice thing about Aurora Store is it allows you to install apps without a google account linked to your device, keeping Google Play Services signed-out.
Somewhere in the FAQ GOS advertises that Play Services can be used without signing in, but they also recommend the official Play Store (which requires signing in) and explicitly don't recommend Aurora (which doesn't).
Unless I'm missing something, I don't see how you can functionally use Play Services signed-out when in order to obtain those apps in the first place, you need to sign into a Google Account for Google Play.
That's personally what I used Aurora for, plus as an easy way to export APK files.
juiceland 55 minutes ago [-]
> Google Account that isn't tied to anything else.
At the risk of being a privacy absolutist / fatalist: Google’s entire business model is surveillance. They follow you around and track your habits so you can be influenced. Given that, a Google account is always tied to something else.
tredre3 17 minutes ago [-]
I'm under no illusion that google doesn't know I own my multiple accounts. They most certainly do. I usually use the same user agent (with containers) on the same IP, after all.
But my goal is to avoid a stranger gaining access to my google services if they manage to unlock a lost device or steal my TV/streaming box that has no lock at all.
I wish Google supported a permission system per device. For example on most of my android devices all I really want is to be logged into Youtube and the play store. I most certainly do not want those devices to have access to my contacts, emails, calendar, keep, drive, payment, etc. (I don't personally use all of those things, but you might and that's what a random thief would gain access to.)
deepsun 3 minutes ago [-]
Yep, something like checkboxes on login:
- ALL: Log me in to all Google Services
- Calendar
- GMail
- YouTube
- ...
Adding more would require to login anew.
josefresco 36 minutes ago [-]
Piggybacking on this... I create my fair share of "burner accounts" and almost always they (not just Google) connect it to my true identity. Granted I'm not using VPNs or really trying to hide the connection but it seems trivial for them to associate.
Forgeties79 33 minutes ago [-]
My experience has been that all the consumer privacy/security tools are varying degrees of “good” at keeping away bad actors, trackers, advertisers, and most third parties, but when it comes to the big dogs, there’s nothing you can really do to stop them. Google, Facebook, etc. just have too many data points already available to them so they can easily build a picture of you. There are simply too many services that have them running around in the background or just straight up depend on them.
All you can do is leave their ecosystem as much as you can and accept you will never be fully rid of them
joekrill 1 hours ago [-]
> a Google Account that isn't tied to anything else.
Isn't that pretty much impossible? You need a phone number for verification, which effectively ties it to that phone number.
megagpt1 1 hours ago [-]
You can create an account with no phone number during Android device setup.
You can also just get a burner phone number for a few bucks.
armadyl 1 hours ago [-]
Accounts created on stock Pixels don’t require phone numbers.
iririririr 1 hours ago [-]
that haven't been true since pixel 4. it just picks your phone in the background.
a burner sim, like a literal criminal, is the only way today.
asnelt 47 minutes ago [-]
Even with a burner sim, there is the International Mobile Equipment Identity (IMEI) number, which is tied to the phone, and is known to all apps with the android.permission.READ_PRIVILEGED_PHONE_STATE permission.
As of Android 10, apps cannot obtain permission to access non-resettable hardware identifiers such as the serial number, MAC addresses, IMEIs/MEIDs, SIM card serial numbers and subscriber IDs. Only privileged apps included in the base system with READ_PRIVILEGED_PHONE_STATE whitelisted can access these hardware identifiers. Apps targeting Android 10 will receive a SecurityException and older apps will receive an empty value for compatibility. The currently enabled carrier-based messaging app for SMS/MMS/RCS is a special case that's given access to certain device identifiers including the IMEI. This is normally the GrapheneOS fork of AOSP Messaging but can be changed to another app by the user.
Since these restrictions became standard, GrapheneOS only makes a small change to remove a legacy form of access to the serial number by legacy apps, which was still around for compatibility. It used to need more extensive changes such as disallowing access to the serial number but those restrictions are now standard.
I don't know however if sandboxed google play is such a privileged app.
asnelt 25 minutes ago [-]
I couldn't immediately find whether GrapheneOS grants READ_PRIVILEGED_PHONE_STATE to Google Play. It might very well be that the GrapheneOS sandbox spoofs a fake IMEI, and I do hope so.
In any case, my parent comment was meant for stock Pixels, as mentioned by armadyl further up in this thread.
> Google Play receives absolutely no special access or privileges on GrapheneOS as opposed to bypassing the app sandbox and receiving a massive amount of highly privileged access.
It doesn't mention IMEI here, but hopefully READ_PRIVILEGED_PHONE_STATE is included in "privileged access."
megagpt5 12 minutes ago [-]
It still works without a SIM card, how do you explain that?
goodmythical 58 minutes ago [-]
assuming the number you get hasn't previously been assigned to a google account
hadlock 46 minutes ago [-]
It seems wise to have at least one alternative mobile phone app store. Even if it isn't very good. If the government can tell Google to do trivial things like, for example, change the name of bodies (plural now) of water, it can turn off your app updates, trapping you on insecure versions indefinitely. This probably matters more if you live outside of the US, but if I had a plan B for an app store on my phone, I would certainly at least evaluate it.
arjie 10 minutes ago [-]
Name changes happen all the time and I would expect Google to match what the government sources use locally. The fact that the government is capricious is no reason for me to desire Google to become an alternative naming center.
dmantis 31 minutes ago [-]
Sometimes you just can't.
For example, the banking app I have refuses to be installed from the Play Store on GrapheneOS due to "not-certified" device, but works perfectly fine when installed by Aurora.
The check seems to be purely store-based and never enforced later.
suddenlybananas 7 minutes ago [-]
I have similar problems installing region locked apps as someone who's fairly frequently in different regions.
amaccuish 54 minutes ago [-]
GrapheneOS is focused on absolute security. For those of us on more privacy-oriented ROMs with MicroG, we're very happy with Aurora.
Cider9986 34 minutes ago [-]
GrapheneOS is focused on privacy but that must come from a secure baseline.
GrapheneOS is much more privacy focussd than any other mobile operating system. Accrescent is the end goal for a secure and private app store but it's still in alpha. GrapheneOS is also the best for degoogling (eliminating all google services) because it comes with zero Google services unlike all the other ones listed here: https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm
How can you call other OSes more privacy focused when they haven't closed as many VPN leaks as GrapheneOS? That's like bare minimum for privacy.
dingaling 4 minutes ago [-]
The problem is that to achieve privacy through security, Graphene has to treat the user as a potentially hostile actor.
Therefore, the system needs to protect itself and other apps from the user. Which is very much contrary to software freedom.
khriss 23 minutes ago [-]
> you can sign into the Play Store with a Google Account that isn't tied to anything else.
The problem with this is that increasingly Google is insisting on having a phone number to create a Google account. Further, they are aggressively deleting old accounts that appear to be dormant.
The good old days of creating a Google account with just an email seem to be swiftly becoming a thing of the past.
SahAssar 1 hours ago [-]
Having to have a account is absolutely a downgrade and privacy-hostile.
talon8635 1 hours ago [-]
Doesn’t Google make it very hard to create an account tied to nothing (no phone or alt email)?
armadyl 1 hours ago [-]
If you create it on a stock Pixel device the phone requirement gets dropped.
talon8635 1 hours ago [-]
It’s undoubtedly tied to the phone with is tied to the owner
gruez 1 hours ago [-]
People report that it works even on grapheneos with sandboxed google play. My guess there's some fingerprinting going on, not necessarily that they're tying the account to some account id.
NewJazz 41 minutes ago [-]
I tried and it didn't work, it kept asking for my phone number.
armadyl 1 hours ago [-]
Well yeah. But if you care about anonymity on that level there are ways around that (i.e. buying in cash and creating the account using public WiFi).
burningChrome 39 minutes ago [-]
[flagged]
kotaKat 54 minutes ago [-]
It's the SomethingAwful model: go to the store and find the cheapest Android phone from some prepaid company for :tenbux: then use it to set up your Google account during out-of-box-setup while on the store's free public WiFi (since Google OOBE allows free account creation without a number or existing email), then toss the phone in a drawer afterwards.
"Hope ya got ten bucks!"
(I got a random 5G Moto phone for ~$10 on clearance and it was an absolute shitter of a phone full of garbage packed in malware, but after cleaning and debloating as much as I can, it's at least a nifty toy to poke at Termux or something.)
halyconWays 21 minutes ago [-]
"For extra privacy, you can sign into the Play Store with a Google Account that isn't tied to anything else."
lol. lamo, even.
troyvit 1 hours ago [-]
I use Aurora on GOS. I get that they say sandboxed Play is more secure than Aurora, but I prefer it for its lack of toxicity and absence of shitty dark patterns.
I think the increased popularity of GOS is going to draw in more users like me who picked it for reasons adjacent to Graphene's original purpose, and I hope it's not too annoying for their community.
DaSHacka 1 hours ago [-]
I actually think there's already a lot of us in the 'community' as-is. I personally describe it as 'Valuing Privacy/Freedom over Security'. One pretty clear example of this is how they don't recommend using FireFox Mobile and F-Droid, both of which I use regardless because I'm not willing to put up with worse privacy/usability tradeoffs in the name of (imo 'hyper-')security.
I think it's fine the mission of the project isn't directly aligned with some of us, though I can tell we often get on the core contributor's nerves lol
megagpt5 10 minutes ago [-]
They actually ban people from their Discord (which is their official support channel - so much for privacy/security!) for mentioning F-Droid. I'm starting to think the creator of F-Droid must have run over their dog.
titularcomment 28 minutes ago [-]
FYI, there are ungoogled chromium builds for Android. Firefox Mobile really is a lackluster browser unfortunately both from a usability and security standpoint (e.g. IonStack worked on Fennec)
Semaphor 12 minutes ago [-]
I really like the Firefox usability. For what I do it works great. It has uBo and a bunch of other extensions, and if course it can sync with desktop.
flexagoon 33 minutes ago [-]
> I hope it's not too annoying for their community
There's plenty of people like that in the GOS community (the forum and the Matrix). Everyone generally understands that different people have different threat models and may want to do things that aren't the most secure. Otherwise everyone would be using GOS in airplane mode with disabled cameras and only paying for things with Monero.
The core dev team is obviously a bit more security absolutist, but even they usually dont mind
kjander79 1 hours ago [-]
I feel the title editorializes a bit too much. The thread only confirms the bug, not a specific cause yet. As sibling comments indicate, the effect on GrapheneOS users is undetermined.
titularcomment 38 minutes ago [-]
This is standart, and happens constantly with Invidious (youtube frontend). This happened before on AuroraOSS too. They probably just flagged the accounts and no API change or A/B testing an API change.
aniviacat 55 minutes ago [-]
For me, the issue also only occurs sometimes. Usually I can download apps like normal.
skeledrew 1 hours ago [-]
I've been stuck with unupdated apps because Aurora hasn't been working for me for a while. A few of them have been nagging me to update. I have everything Google disabled or removed, and no I won't reenable any of it. Also I use anon strictly on Aurora, and no I won't login with my Google account; haven't logged in on a phone for over 8 years now and I have no intention of breaking the streak.
thataccount 3 minutes ago [-]
Looks like the same thing is true for Calyx.
krunck 3 minutes ago [-]
Yep broken on my /e/OS device too.
ssernikk 17 minutes ago [-]
I maintain my grandmothers phone, which comes down mostly to just updating WhatsApp once in a while. Obviously she doesn't have a google account, so I've installed her AuroraStore.
It's a shame that there is no official way to install apps on android without a google accout[1], since it's a basic functionality, just like calls or a web browser.
[1] For obvious reasons I don't want her to download apks from the internet.
erikvanoosten 5 minutes ago [-]
Okay, it was a bit of clickbait. Didn't expect it to be picked up like this.
Mistake from me: apparently GrapheneOS does not recommend Aurora Store (citation needed). Kind of weird though; it means Google still knows a lot about you, which doesn't seem very privacy conscience.
Google blocking Aurora Store was a conclusion made in the bug thread. It was not my conclusion.
And for the nit pickers: Sailfish OS is not Android, but its emulation layer _is_. :shrug: Even though Sailfish is nice, without its Android layer it is practically unusable.
Funny thing: the 'busy server' problem existed for almost a week. I could download 1 app per day max on my Jolla C2. But just now, now that this thread makes top of Hackernews, everything started working just fine!
denzen 1 hours ago [-]
Using lineageos on an old samsung without any google services, I guess this would impact many "degoogled" users as well
CodesInChaos 1 hours ago [-]
For me anonymous use of Aurora never really worked, and with a google account it still works.
lenerdenator 21 minutes ago [-]
Remember when people kept justifying Android over Windows Phone/Maemo/WebOS/BlackBerry/FirefoxOS on the grounds that it was free and open source software, infinitely customizable, and that Google was a good-faith partner who wanted openness in the mobile market?
Good times, good times.
ChocolateGod 1 hours ago [-]
So an app that uses an unofficial API broke when that API changed?
Not news nor "blocking".
berkes 12 minutes ago [-]
What is an "official API"?
Honest question, because AFAIK there's no guarantee or (legal) requirement to support any API. Whether that's fully documented, has SDKs or whether it's something reversed-engineered doesn't matter WRT the support the company owning the API is supposed or required to give.
Or am I wrong there?
_leom 55 minutes ago [-]
This happened to me but then got fixed the day later
kotaKat 1 hours ago [-]
Didn't Epic get some kind of magic injunction saying that Google had to allow open access to the entire Play Store catalogue or something?
berkes 9 minutes ago [-]
Also, EU is pushing towards more "open" app-stores through anti-trust.
Not that it requires Google to "open up" their play-store, but that they must allow other app-stores to work on the same level. So basically allowing devs and users to move elsewhere.
megagpt2 60 minutes ago [-]
But not for everyone for free. What it means is Epic, or anyone like Epic, will be able to write to Google, send a nominal amount of money, and get some API key and bare documentation which is only allowed to be used in Epic. It's a B2B commercial transaction under court-ordered terms, not an open API. Same as the Apple browser API. If you want, you can register a company "Kotakat App Store Inc" and get access to the same terms but you'll probably need to sue Google to make them give you access. Apple hasn't approved any browsers, either.
megagpt5 9 minutes ago [-]
They did, but you still have to sign a contract with them to get access.
1 hours ago [-]
ChrisArchitect 1 hours ago [-]
Title is: Aurora Store returns a “&$Server busy, please try again later.” error
58 minutes ago [-]
ranger_danger 1 hours ago [-]
> Aurora uses burner account for anonymous login. looks like their account pool is flagged
This seems like it was destined to get banned somehow... and I don't think it means that the store itself is blocked, just the pool of accounts they (ab)use.
shevy-java 50 minutes ago [-]
Google becomes more and more evil by the second now.
hluska 20 minutes ago [-]
That’s quite the conclusion to derive from a Gitlab issue. Do you mind sharing your thought process or was that just a knee jerk reaction without any reasoning behind it?
v1z 1 hours ago [-]
Google needs to fuck off
erikvanoosten 2 hours ago [-]
Android distributions that recommend AuroraStore (such as Graphene OS and Sailfish OS) are now mostly blocked by Google Play Store.
dxjxjdjsssb 2 hours ago [-]
Play store works just fine on GrapheneOS. All of play services run in a sandbox.
You can install the Play store from the GrapheneOS App Store.
In fact I'm pretty sure the GrapheneOS folks advise against Aurora Store, etc.
himata4113 2 hours ago [-]
The entire point is so you don't have to have a google account. Aurora actually works fine if you do sign in. This is just blocking anon downloads.
megagpt2 58 minutes ago [-]
Market price for a Google account is about $1.50, you can also buy a burner SIM to set up the maximum number of accounts Google will let you with the same phone number.
imzadi 2 hours ago [-]
Yeah, was confused. I'm on GrapheneOS and don't even know what Aurora is.
CodesInChaos 1 hours ago [-]
It's an alternative client app for the google store.
bushwart 1 hours ago [-]
I wasn't aware GOS recommended AuroraStore.
Cider9986 29 minutes ago [-]
They don't. It's unreliable but they have fixed security issues.
JoshStrobl 1 hours ago [-]
Sailfish OS user on Jolla Phone 2: Aurora is working fine here.
P.S. Sailfish OS is NOT an Android distribution. It is a proper Linux system and they have their own custom Android runtime (AppSupport) as a layer on top for running Android apps. This runtime _is_ Android under the hood, but is separate from Sailfish itself (has its own native app ecosystem).
19 minutes ago [-]
Cider9986 30 minutes ago [-]
Play store works fine on GrapheneOS.
iAMkenough 1 hours ago [-]
AuroraStore uses a pool of burner Google Play Store accounts to facilitate anonymous downloads. This is what happens when those burner accounts get flagged.
ErenayDev 50 minutes ago [-]
I'm using my Proton account in my phone and in play store. now i tried adding my proton account in AuroraStore, and it worked flawlessly. so my question: why AuroraStore uses google accounts instead of another providers?
ranger_danger 1 hours ago [-]
How does one even create a new google account in $current_year without requiring phone verification or worse?
megagpt2 56 minutes ago [-]
You could suck it up and do the phone number verification, it usually costs around $5 for a phone number.
Or you could go through the android phone sign-up process which doesn't require one. Buy a cheap android phone and keep resetting it and making a new account each time.
Or you could buy an account on the grey web from someone who already did this. Should be under $2.
If you are really into this you could become a phone company and own a whole block of phone numbers.
For extra privacy, you can sign into the Play Store with a Google Account that isn't tied to anything else.
Somewhere in the FAQ GOS advertises that Play Services can be used without signing in, but they also recommend the official Play Store (which requires signing in) and explicitly don't recommend Aurora (which doesn't).
Unless I'm missing something, I don't see how you can functionally use Play Services signed-out when in order to obtain those apps in the first place, you need to sign into a Google Account for Google Play.
That's personally what I used Aurora for, plus as an easy way to export APK files.
At the risk of being a privacy absolutist / fatalist: Google’s entire business model is surveillance. They follow you around and track your habits so you can be influenced. Given that, a Google account is always tied to something else.
But my goal is to avoid a stranger gaining access to my google services if they manage to unlock a lost device or steal my TV/streaming box that has no lock at all.
I wish Google supported a permission system per device. For example on most of my android devices all I really want is to be logged into Youtube and the play store. I most certainly do not want those devices to have access to my contacts, emails, calendar, keep, drive, payment, etc. (I don't personally use all of those things, but you might and that's what a random thief would gain access to.)
All you can do is leave their ecosystem as much as you can and accept you will never be fully rid of them
Isn't that pretty much impossible? You need a phone number for verification, which effectively ties it to that phone number.
You can also just get a burner phone number for a few bucks.
a burner sim, like a literal criminal, is the only way today.
In any case, my parent comment was meant for stock Pixels, as mentioned by armadyl further up in this thread.
> Google Play receives absolutely no special access or privileges on GrapheneOS as opposed to bypassing the app sandbox and receiving a massive amount of highly privileged access.
It doesn't mention IMEI here, but hopefully READ_PRIVILEGED_PHONE_STATE is included in "privileged access."
For example, the banking app I have refuses to be installed from the Play Store on GrapheneOS due to "not-certified" device, but works perfectly fine when installed by Aurora.
The check seems to be purely store-based and never enforced later.
GrapheneOS is much more privacy focussd than any other mobile operating system. Accrescent is the end goal for a secure and private app store but it's still in alpha. GrapheneOS is also the best for degoogling (eliminating all google services) because it comes with zero Google services unlike all the other ones listed here: https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm
How can you call other OSes more privacy focused when they haven't closed as many VPN leaks as GrapheneOS? That's like bare minimum for privacy.
Therefore, the system needs to protect itself and other apps from the user. Which is very much contrary to software freedom.
The problem with this is that increasingly Google is insisting on having a phone number to create a Google account. Further, they are aggressively deleting old accounts that appear to be dormant.
The good old days of creating a Google account with just an email seem to be swiftly becoming a thing of the past.
"Hope ya got ten bucks!"
(I got a random 5G Moto phone for ~$10 on clearance and it was an absolute shitter of a phone full of garbage packed in malware, but after cleaning and debloating as much as I can, it's at least a nifty toy to poke at Termux or something.)
lol. lamo, even.
I think the increased popularity of GOS is going to draw in more users like me who picked it for reasons adjacent to Graphene's original purpose, and I hope it's not too annoying for their community.
I think it's fine the mission of the project isn't directly aligned with some of us, though I can tell we often get on the core contributor's nerves lol
There's plenty of people like that in the GOS community (the forum and the Matrix). Everyone generally understands that different people have different threat models and may want to do things that aren't the most secure. Otherwise everyone would be using GOS in airplane mode with disabled cameras and only paying for things with Monero.
The core dev team is obviously a bit more security absolutist, but even they usually dont mind
It's a shame that there is no official way to install apps on android without a google accout[1], since it's a basic functionality, just like calls or a web browser.
[1] For obvious reasons I don't want her to download apks from the internet.
Mistake from me: apparently GrapheneOS does not recommend Aurora Store (citation needed). Kind of weird though; it means Google still knows a lot about you, which doesn't seem very privacy conscience.
Google blocking Aurora Store was a conclusion made in the bug thread. It was not my conclusion.
And for the nit pickers: Sailfish OS is not Android, but its emulation layer _is_. :shrug: Even though Sailfish is nice, without its Android layer it is practically unusable.
Funny thing: the 'busy server' problem existed for almost a week. I could download 1 app per day max on my Jolla C2. But just now, now that this thread makes top of Hackernews, everything started working just fine!
Good times, good times.
Not news nor "blocking".
Honest question, because AFAIK there's no guarantee or (legal) requirement to support any API. Whether that's fully documented, has SDKs or whether it's something reversed-engineered doesn't matter WRT the support the company owning the API is supposed or required to give.
Or am I wrong there?
Not that it requires Google to "open up" their play-store, but that they must allow other app-stores to work on the same level. So basically allowing devs and users to move elsewhere.
This seems like it was destined to get banned somehow... and I don't think it means that the store itself is blocked, just the pool of accounts they (ab)use.
You can install the Play store from the GrapheneOS App Store.
In fact I'm pretty sure the GrapheneOS folks advise against Aurora Store, etc.
P.S. Sailfish OS is NOT an Android distribution. It is a proper Linux system and they have their own custom Android runtime (AppSupport) as a layer on top for running Android apps. This runtime _is_ Android under the hood, but is separate from Sailfish itself (has its own native app ecosystem).
Or you could go through the android phone sign-up process which doesn't require one. Buy a cheap android phone and keep resetting it and making a new account each time.
Or you could buy an account on the grey web from someone who already did this. Should be under $2.
If you are really into this you could become a phone company and own a whole block of phone numbers.